"Hydra" : A New Community Structure


#14

Vandar, blockchain works because it is “trustless”. All are equal, all are welcome, no one is required to “trust” someone else with their money. But, now you say that there is chaos and a there must be a “trusted” mechanism, an organization on top of the “community” for the good of the community. You even give this person a title “Trusted Guardian” with authority over Every Decision regarding the VaultZ taxes (aka everyone’s money) among other things. And this Trusted Guardian will be the boss because a very small number of folks who are “trusted” get to vote. There is an awful lot of “trust” being handed out in this proposal to a very small number of people who get to spend the tax money raised by VaultZ. This doesn’t sound compatible in any way with a “trustless” blockchain like BTCZ. There is a fella down in Australia who is attempting this sort of business with Bitcoin currently.
I see there will be no time limits or term limits to The Trusted Guardian’s tenure so “he” or “she” or “it” (careful now because in California and elsewhere you can be fined for not using the correct pronoun and even jailed if you don’t pay the fine) can be there as long as he* wants or keeps getting voted in. That sounds like trouble (tyranny) waiting to happen. Is vote buying legal? If it isn’t legal, how will you know if someone is buying votes or not? Can contracts be awarded in exchange for votes and if not how will you know? What are the penalties and who enforces them? Are votes secret? You’re going to be spending a lot of VaultZ money. Is VaultZ paying taxes? And if so, to whom? Is your mythical multi-headed monster incorporated? And if it is, where will you incorporate it and who is going to pay the attorneys? Surely you will need to incorporate this monster because if you don’t then whoever the “Trusted Guardian” is will be open to lawsuit if someone doesn’t like a decision made. And when the various regulators come along to regulate and audit the books who will represent this monster at the audit or in court? What country will you incorporate in and will the taxes owed be paid? Sounds like there is going to need taxes raised to cover some unforeseen expenses. And how does all of this sit with the White Paper? I don’t see anything like this mentioned in the White Paper so the whole “Hydra” thing is potentially a violation of the White Paper and you are creating an organization out of nothing to sit atop and spend the BTCZ blockchain taxes because you feel a need to bring order to a perceived “chaos” where there really is no chaos. Blockchain is the opposite of chaos. The organization you intend here will be subject to all the governmental rules and regulations any business is subject to because you have created something that requires someone’s hands on but you haven’t envisioned any of the pitfalls that come with such an organization or at least you haven’t provided for any of these eventualities in your proposal and none of the voters has asked any of these questions yet so I feel compelled to point them out… These things Must be addressed before launching this monster otherwise BTCZ could well find itself buried under all manner of legal problems that will bring it to a halt. Who did you say you will be paying the taxes to? Because you will have to report IRS1099s in the US and probably something like it in most every other country or state or province. If you don’t, the tax man will be soon at the Trusted Guardian’s door and if you incorporate I ask again where did you say you will incorporate? Who’s laws will govern this organization? Which state which province which country? Maybe this whole thing needs a little more thinking through. Is anyone still reading?
I see you expect to be buying some advertising. How will you know if the advertising works? Is there a mechanism to measure it’s success? And who do you intend to target with your advertising? And, something most voters probably haven’t thought too much about before voting “yes” on this proposal, as BTC climbs again in value will BTCZ climb also? And, if so why? Because of advertising? When BTCZ is worth fewer and fewer Satoshi because BTC continues to climb, will anyone see any sense in buying BTCZ no matter how much you advertise? This is not to denigrate our coin in any manner because I do see it having great value one day but expecting it to ever be worth more than 1 US penny may be asking too much and keeping pace with BTC is highly unlikely. Am I in some kind of speech violation here now because I brought up the price of BTCZ??
There is so much more that needs resolving, unanswered questions, regarding this proposal but I doubt many are still reading.
What VaultZ needs is a trustless, hands off mechanism that functions without someone’s hands on and it’s success or failure can be empirically measured, just like our beloved BTCZ is. “Hydra” is the opposite of that.


#15

Brilliant Ideas!
I can’t believe i’m here in the next Bitcoin Talk Forum in the future :grinning:
I trusted BitcoinZ will replace First Place of Bitcoin Position on Coinmarketcap, Trust me! :rocket:


#16

Wow this amazing it is almost as full blown whitepaper material here.


#17

Yeah, I agree with you. I hope BtcZ will go ahead on and on


#18

Btcz people are a Community , not a Corporation. They are free to gather a percentage that themselves have decided with a fair equal percentage for all (aka VaultZ).

Beside this , we are not a security as btcz doesn’t pay any interest rate.

So all those things about regulations and taxes you are describing , have no relation with the reality.

Even if the Community wishes to spend some funds for let’s say buying a Twitter promotion or some domain names, or anything else , any (vat) tax is paid with the transaction.

There is no taxing for VaultZ , it is not a FIAT personal income. It is a Community fund raised by all the Community members and it is planned to be used for the expansion of BTCZ’s Ecosystem, again with decisions taken by our members.

The Hydra Proposal just sets a frame of rules in order to protect the project and maximize the Community funds’ usage.

The “chaos” which I have mentioned has nothing to do with the blockchain technology.
I have explained it in my previous message but obviously you refuse to accept the difference between the decentralized usage of a cryptocurrency network and the decisions about its expansion which have to be excecuted by some people (which in our case have to be elected and to have a trusted background).
You call this thing “centralization” and you are advocating the devil , trying to say what ?
That there should be no human factor in the Cryptocurrency projects?
I have to remind you that all the safety upgrades have been made by specific trusted (in quotes for you) people.
The new wallets and all the apps are designed by trusted people.
Even the coin has been launched , ( like the bitcoin itself) by someone.
If this (the minimum required human factor) is centralization for you , you have not understood what DEcentralization really is.

ALL those people , are working HARD for the DEcentralization , for the blockchain network which can make people to freely transact without the need to trust the other part of the payment or a bank.

Please clarify the things in your mind, you seem really confused .


#19

Again, Vandar, you do not address any of the issues I have raised because you cannot. And the foolish are cheering you and this pipe dream on. You are pretending that the real world has no interest in what you are proposing y shouting “community, community” to regulators that don’t care. YOU Are creating a business and setting it atop of the BTCZ blockchain. If you were paying attention to what is going on and knew anything of business and the regulation thereof then you would recognize how unprepared you are. You have made up a set of rules for what you think is a dandy way to run your business without ever considering that there is a world of regulations that pertain to the business you think you aren’t creating. I would never have come near this coin in October of 2017 if I had any inkling that this was the way it would go. Curious, who will you nominate to be the first “Trusted Guardian”? What are you going to do when Craig Wright claims patent rights to the name and blockchain that you are using? What? Reality will be setting in sooner than you think, then you get deal with a lawsuit you can’t handle and it will mean paying royalties you haven’t accounted for or possibly the destruction of this coin.
You are blindly making the bed you must sleep in and I tire of trying to show you the error of your ways so no reason for you to try respond further.


#20

All types of Socialism are voted into existence, HydraX is no different. It starts with a Trusted Few and a Guardian. It ends with Elites and a Dictator. Thats when the community doesn’t matter anymore. Thats when the few know what is best for the many. I agree with HarryArms.


#21

All types of Socialism are voted into existence, HydraX is no different. It starts with a Trusted Few and a Guardian. It ends with Elites and a Dictator. Thats when the community doesn’t matter anymore. Thats when the few know what is best for the many. I agree with HarryArms.
[/quote]


#22

As Vandar himself says “The Community Trusted Guardian can block a decision with his veto even if the voting procedure’s outcome was a clear “YES”.”
Put yourself in his hands and all will be well because he will know what is good for you.
And still no word on where this travesty will be incorporated.


#23

Seriously now ?

You ignored everything that has been analysed and explained and you are trying to present the veto power of the people who are Community’s choices for protecting the coin’s funds from external possible threats , as a bad useless dictator ?

If there weren’t some people, there would be no crypto , no btcz , no innovative ideas.
People are choosing everything and people are deciding if they wish to have this structure as well for our Community, with a 100% democratic procedure.

Please respect any outcome without trying to distort both Hydra’s structure description and purpose.

Thank you

PS : The voting procedure will be open for three whole weeks , because it is about a major change.

Everyone please vote what you think better for the coin. No hard feelings !


#24

I and a few others haven’t ignored anything. We have seen this kind of monstrosity too many times before and all of your platitudes are meaningless when you even go so far as to codify power into the hands of a few and eventually into the hands of one “Trusted Guardian” That is straight out of any commie playbook. Your lack of understanding of what you are stepping into is astounding. And I am not even ascribing untoward motivation at this point but the hand writing is on the wall. You still haven’t said where you will incorporate this thing because you don’t think you are creating a business but you are and therein lies the preposterousness of this proposal. It looks more like the ground rules for a backyard boys clubhouse than anything serious and the folks you will get to deal with are serious. You haven’t responded to any of the concerns expressed because you can’t and you think they are just going to go away because you don’t want to think about them and don’t even know how. That won’t work. I didn’t want to go the route Cyberfrog1 went but he is exactly correct. Here comes a “Trusted Guardian” to make secure other peoples money from chaos and outsiders with authority to veto whatever he feels is bad… Mmhmm.


#25

I have responded to every single question with explanations.
The article itself had already the answers to everything you said.

However you keep saying the same thing , that one man is going to decide for people’s money etc

This is insane. I explained from the very first moment that everyone is free to use his funds in whatever way he wish.

The only thing that is changing, is how the funding mechanism of the Community Vault works.
Until now, only a few active community members were donating for the expansion of the project.
With VaultZ+Hydra this is finally over with fair solution , because everyone is contributing the same : a small fraction of the mining rewards.

Those Community funds will be used more wisely and will be protected by external threats, with a frame of rules for which people of this Community are deciding democratically, like we have already done with the 5% choice for Community Funding percentage.

There is no corporation or people’s money spending or such things that you said.
If someone doesn’t want to contribute , he is free to NOT mine the coin.
Nobody makes you to mine btcz and contribute to our digital coin’s Community funds.

So nothing is changing for your personal funds.
Your btcz coins will be still in your wallet and you and only you are free to decide what you will do with them.


#26

:point_right: HYDRA => Community paper :thinking: annexes :thinking:

Hydra project seems to be an extension of the community paper at "Proposals, Community Map, Voting, Community Chest Withdrawals" dot III.
It could also be integrated into (after voting) as annexed of the paper (or something related to):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aLuEcyHNKq215X4am2YQNXfQmPnV1pTt

I personnaly think that nothing of this proposal is going against the fundamentals.

Inversely rather,
it seems to me that this is a natural extension of the basic project.

I was against the VaultZ, and I still think today that this project must be based on voluntaries.
VaultZ is here now ! We must now find an effective method of managing these funds in a community way.

… So yes, HYDRA is a good solution until the community grows up a little more.

We still have the choice :
‘‘It starts with a Trusted Few and a Guardian. It ends with Elites and a Dictator.’’
If so, in this case, you can choice to quite. In a real dictature, it’s not so easy…

Now the thing is :

  • Are we voting for rules defined in this proposal?

  • Or do we still vote again later to improve (and find a consensus to the majority again) the rule before "implement"? (exact voting time, real power of the "Trusted Guardian", the small % of VaultZ to take, should we automate the process,…)

In any case, there are still many ‘details’ to fix, but I support this initiative :muscle::handshake:


#27

@VandarGR
I have a question… the admins after being elected how long they last? And how to be taken off if they did a bad job or it turns out they are not suitable?


#28

It lasts for a quarter (3 months).

It is not necessary to present an analytical report for their job , but it would be nice if they would like to be relected as trusted managers.

The funds for each Community Subwallet have a cap and cannot ever be over a certain sum so the risks are minimized.

We had to choose between two states:
A “closed” strict model , with many rules , making the candidates for Subwallet management very fearful to take over.

Or a more “open” and easy one , making more likely to have actively participating members and empowering the trust and cooperation between the members.

Hydra takes the second one , hoping that it will be the optimum choice.


#29

VaultrZ is other people’s money. Miner’s money. Not trader’s money, miner’s money. And, just like every other statist on the planet you think you can raise a tax and that money is yours now to do as you please. When the State comes for it’s tax money, how are you going to pay? You think because you shout “community” to the tax men they are going to just walk away? You haven’t answered anything but keep repeating the same platitudes and pretending you know what you are doing. 64 votes of 68 voters is hardly a quorum of thousands of people to give ANY validity to anything you are or will propose to do and there is no mechanism to assess the efficacy of what you are doing. This is not “growing” BTCZ in any manner and there will be no positive effect on the coin but a whole lot of carping when you have wasted millions of our coins on your advertising. A little lesson for you and your followers. Blockchain is “trustless”. No one has to "trust’ someone on the internet or in a building or in their mother’s basement because of it’s marvelous “trustless” structure. But, in your wisdom you think you are going to fix BTCZ and make it better with some kind of “Trusted Guardian” because you can’t come up with a “trustless” mechanism to get BTCZ into the hands of those who may use it. This is a bad joke and the perfect example of how corruption destroys good work. You are taking 5% of my mining for your fantasy and I don’t like it one bit and I would never go near a program with this kind of structure in place but, Marcelaus says I can just take a hike if I don’t like it. How many others out there do you want to tell take it or leave it with the nethash less than a quarter of what it was a year ago? Your 68 total voters after near 4 weeks of posting with the vast majority coming in the first couple of days should give an honest man reason for pause and also make it clear that this sort of “voting” is a joke along with any subsequent actions. A “trustless” mechanism is needed.


#30

Yep ! I say that. And for example, you can go to Zcash community ? And there is really a society structure that decides everything for you, about your funds, and not just about 5% … And about this 5%, have you read VandarGR’s proposal correctly ? Yes ? No ? To reframe everything, he proposes to take 10% of the funds of VaultZ only for the Hydra structure !

The funds of VaultZ are already rising ! VaultZ has already been voted ! VaultZ is in place ! And now ? What do you suggest ? Do we leave the funds in the wallets of VaultZ and we expect another proposal, which will have 120 votes … And the same discussion will return to the agenda ? So, do we have to wait until more than the half of user (here it will be > 300 users) are voting ?

You say that VandarGR does not answer the questions you asked … It seems to me that the proposal is well described (although it requires some adjustment).

Also you can propose to stop VaultZ. And we can do a lottery with the total VaultZ funds ! 20’000’000 BTCz now, It’s a nice jackpot :wink:


#31

You seem that you don’t wish to understand.

The “trustless” part has to do with the transactions and it is in the nature of the blockchain technology.
So this is still there for btcz .

It is not lost because of the VaultZ+Hydra
Add-ons. Those doesn’t change ANYTHING about the way you transact , with confirmations by unknown to you miners etc.

Vaultz+Hydra have to do with the expansion part: they brought a solution for ensuring our future development and marketing.
Without those , the “trustless part” with the free transactions without banks etc , that the world needs, would remain unknown to the masses and the coin would be probably condemned to fail.

Please take some time and read about VaultZ. The fact that it was warmly overvoted by a huge percentage among the Community members, was not just a random event. It was a very critical , fair and proper decision.

Again , there is no government tax for a Crypto - Community Fund , because this is not a company or a personal income of somebody.

It just serves the Community of this coin and don’t forget that the VaultZ is not a tax itself.
It is a democratically decided , and fairly distributed Community funding percentage, 5% to all mined blocks.
It is completely transparent and it is not a steal or a forced tax with the launch of the coin or something.
We voted for it and everyone is free to participate by mining the coin , or to choose another coin to mine if he doesn’t want to.

However right now , btcz is still one of the very TOP profitable equihash coins.

If you feel that someone is stealing your money by that , sorry but I cannot help you further.
You can just switch to another coin.

You have to respect democracy though. Here , the most btcz Community members have taken a crystal clear decision in favour of VAULTZ+HYDRA.

Thank you


#32

I’m also against any form of taxes, socialism, and especially the end result of it - dictatorship. Having said that, people have to be rewarded for their effort. This projects badly requires development and it became obvious in the last two years that all the dev and support of adoption work has to be adequately rewarded. There is no such thing as free lunch or in this case a free BtcZ #2 CMC. BtcZ won’t evolve without people investing their time and work into this coin. This is why the miner’s money, as you rightfully name it, have to be put into not only finding another block but keeping this coin alive and evolving.


#33

I have repeatedly pointed out the fallacies of your assumptions and you blithely or ignorantly ignore them so I say again, You have no idea what you are doing here. VaultZ Is A Tax On Miners. No miner has a choice in the matter and you want to waste those taxes on some advertising you will come up with. You just don’t understand how business functions. I’m not gonna bother much with trying to point out yet again the foolishness of this proposal any longer as you are obviously blind to reality. But, maybe you can understand this. I’m not suggesting that what you are doing is necessarily because of conscious, nefarious motives. Sometimes people can convince themselves that what they’re doing is in the higher interest, the better good. You don’t realize that what you’re doing is really antithetical to the trustless system that we have. You are viewing yourself as the “Trusted Guardian” of the people and are more informed and sensitive than everybody else. How arrogant. As for your support? It is unchanged for several days now after garnering most all of the “Yes” votes in the first couple of days. Obviously, those reading now are NOT supporting what you are proposing and I dare say you are already chasing miners away as nethash has dropped by 30% in the last 10 days! Folks are seeing what you are proposing and are rightfully walking away. Why bother voting in this farce when it’s doomed to failure on the face. You have chosen the wrong vehicle to prosper this coin. I say again that your proposal is invalid because support dried up as soon as folks began understanding what you are creating. You would be better served by just giving away 5% to any and all first timers who would download a BTCZ branded wallet. A Trustless mechanism that would create thousands of new users and you could actually see results and monitor the growth with numbered wallets. Why waste BTCZ trying to advertise when there is already a flood of similar coins already on the market. “Profitable?” Only to a few traders who are causing prices to continue down. Any “development” of BTCZ is wasted if you don’t get BTCZ into the hands of folks who will actually use it. I will even give 1,000,000 BTCZ to the developer who creates a numbered wallet that could be preloaded with 1k BTCZ from VaultZ. Yes, a Million. Your proposal has no validity as support has already dried up with a week to go in this “vote”. Let it go. You are already at the point where you are telling folks to get lost if they don’t like what you are up to. I don’t wonder what it will be like if you ever get the keys to VaultZ as the handwriting is on the wall. (These so called “votes” are lame as it is. There is no QUORUM in this process! A proposal should be posted for comment for a month or more before voting starts to give folks a chance to examine what is being proposed instead of a few people ignorantly jumping on a bandwagon and skewing reality.)