"Hydra" : A New Community Structure


#22

As Vandar himself says “The Community Trusted Guardian can block a decision with his veto even if the voting procedure’s outcome was a clear “YES”.”
Put yourself in his hands and all will be well because he will know what is good for you.
And still no word on where this travesty will be incorporated.


#23

Seriously now ?

You ignored everything that has been analysed and explained and you are trying to present the veto power of the people who are Community’s choices for protecting the coin’s funds from external possible threats , as a bad useless dictator ?

If there weren’t some people, there would be no crypto , no btcz , no innovative ideas.
People are choosing everything and people are deciding if they wish to have this structure as well for our Community, with a 100% democratic procedure.

Please respect any outcome without trying to distort both Hydra’s structure description and purpose.

Thank you

PS : The voting procedure will be open for three whole weeks , because it is about a major change.

Everyone please vote what you think better for the coin. No hard feelings !


#24

I and a few others haven’t ignored anything. We have seen this kind of monstrosity too many times before and all of your platitudes are meaningless when you even go so far as to codify power into the hands of a few and eventually into the hands of one “Trusted Guardian” That is straight out of any commie playbook. Your lack of understanding of what you are stepping into is astounding. And I am not even ascribing untoward motivation at this point but the hand writing is on the wall. You still haven’t said where you will incorporate this thing because you don’t think you are creating a business but you are and therein lies the preposterousness of this proposal. It looks more like the ground rules for a backyard boys clubhouse than anything serious and the folks you will get to deal with are serious. You haven’t responded to any of the concerns expressed because you can’t and you think they are just going to go away because you don’t want to think about them and don’t even know how. That won’t work. I didn’t want to go the route Cyberfrog1 went but he is exactly correct. Here comes a “Trusted Guardian” to make secure other peoples money from chaos and outsiders with authority to veto whatever he feels is bad… Mmhmm.


#25

I have responded to every single question with explanations.
The article itself had already the answers to everything you said.

However you keep saying the same thing , that one man is going to decide for people’s money etc

This is insane. I explained from the very first moment that everyone is free to use his funds in whatever way he wish.

The only thing that is changing, is how the funding mechanism of the Community Vault works.
Until now, only a few active community members were donating for the expansion of the project.
With VaultZ+Hydra this is finally over with fair solution , because everyone is contributing the same : a small fraction of the mining rewards.

Those Community funds will be used more wisely and will be protected by external threats, with a frame of rules for which people of this Community are deciding democratically, like we have already done with the 5% choice for Community Funding percentage.

There is no corporation or people’s money spending or such things that you said.
If someone doesn’t want to contribute , he is free to NOT mine the coin.
Nobody makes you to mine btcz and contribute to our digital coin’s Community funds.

So nothing is changing for your personal funds.
Your btcz coins will be still in your wallet and you and only you are free to decide what you will do with them.


#26

:point_right: HYDRA => Community paper :thinking: annexes :thinking:

Hydra project seems to be an extension of the community paper at "Proposals, Community Map, Voting, Community Chest Withdrawals" dot III.
It could also be integrated into (after voting) as annexed of the paper (or something related to):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aLuEcyHNKq215X4am2YQNXfQmPnV1pTt

I personnaly think that nothing of this proposal is going against the fundamentals.

Inversely rather,
it seems to me that this is a natural extension of the basic project.

I was against the VaultZ, and I still think today that this project must be based on voluntaries.
VaultZ is here now ! We must now find an effective method of managing these funds in a community way.

… So yes, HYDRA is a good solution until the community grows up a little more.

We still have the choice :
‘‘It starts with a Trusted Few and a Guardian. It ends with Elites and a Dictator.’’
If so, in this case, you can choice to quite. In a real dictature, it’s not so easy…

Now the thing is :

  • Are we voting for rules defined in this proposal?

  • Or do we still vote again later to improve (and find a consensus to the majority again) the rule before "implement"? (exact voting time, real power of the "Trusted Guardian", the small % of VaultZ to take, should we automate the process,…)

In any case, there are still many ‘details’ to fix, but I support this initiative :muscle::handshake:


#27

@VandarGR
I have a question… the admins after being elected how long they last? And how to be taken off if they did a bad job or it turns out they are not suitable?


#28

It lasts for a quarter (3 months).

It is not necessary to present an analytical report for their job , but it would be nice if they would like to be relected as trusted managers.

The funds for each Community Subwallet have a cap and cannot ever be over a certain sum so the risks are minimized.

We had to choose between two states:
A “closed” strict model , with many rules , making the candidates for Subwallet management very fearful to take over.

Or a more “open” and easy one , making more likely to have actively participating members and empowering the trust and cooperation between the members.

Hydra takes the second one , hoping that it will be the optimum choice.


#29

VaultrZ is other people’s money. Miner’s money. Not trader’s money, miner’s money. And, just like every other statist on the planet you think you can raise a tax and that money is yours now to do as you please. When the State comes for it’s tax money, how are you going to pay? You think because you shout “community” to the tax men they are going to just walk away? You haven’t answered anything but keep repeating the same platitudes and pretending you know what you are doing. 64 votes of 68 voters is hardly a quorum of thousands of people to give ANY validity to anything you are or will propose to do and there is no mechanism to assess the efficacy of what you are doing. This is not “growing” BTCZ in any manner and there will be no positive effect on the coin but a whole lot of carping when you have wasted millions of our coins on your advertising. A little lesson for you and your followers. Blockchain is “trustless”. No one has to "trust’ someone on the internet or in a building or in their mother’s basement because of it’s marvelous “trustless” structure. But, in your wisdom you think you are going to fix BTCZ and make it better with some kind of “Trusted Guardian” because you can’t come up with a “trustless” mechanism to get BTCZ into the hands of those who may use it. This is a bad joke and the perfect example of how corruption destroys good work. You are taking 5% of my mining for your fantasy and I don’t like it one bit and I would never go near a program with this kind of structure in place but, Marcelaus says I can just take a hike if I don’t like it. How many others out there do you want to tell take it or leave it with the nethash less than a quarter of what it was a year ago? Your 68 total voters after near 4 weeks of posting with the vast majority coming in the first couple of days should give an honest man reason for pause and also make it clear that this sort of “voting” is a joke along with any subsequent actions. A “trustless” mechanism is needed.


#30

Yep ! I say that. And for example, you can go to Zcash community ? And there is really a society structure that decides everything for you, about your funds, and not just about 5% … And about this 5%, have you read VandarGR’s proposal correctly ? Yes ? No ? To reframe everything, he proposes to take 10% of the funds of VaultZ only for the Hydra structure !

The funds of VaultZ are already rising ! VaultZ has already been voted ! VaultZ is in place ! And now ? What do you suggest ? Do we leave the funds in the wallets of VaultZ and we expect another proposal, which will have 120 votes … And the same discussion will return to the agenda ? So, do we have to wait until more than the half of user (here it will be > 300 users) are voting ?

You say that VandarGR does not answer the questions you asked … It seems to me that the proposal is well described (although it requires some adjustment).

Also you can propose to stop VaultZ. And we can do a lottery with the total VaultZ funds ! 20’000’000 BTCz now, It’s a nice jackpot :wink:


#31

You seem that you don’t wish to understand.

The “trustless” part has to do with the transactions and it is in the nature of the blockchain technology.
So this is still there for btcz .

It is not lost because of the VaultZ+Hydra
Add-ons. Those doesn’t change ANYTHING about the way you transact , with confirmations by unknown to you miners etc.

Vaultz+Hydra have to do with the expansion part: they brought a solution for ensuring our future development and marketing.
Without those , the “trustless part” with the free transactions without banks etc , that the world needs, would remain unknown to the masses and the coin would be probably condemned to fail.

Please take some time and read about VaultZ. The fact that it was warmly overvoted by a huge percentage among the Community members, was not just a random event. It was a very critical , fair and proper decision.

Again , there is no government tax for a Crypto - Community Fund , because this is not a company or a personal income of somebody.

It just serves the Community of this coin and don’t forget that the VaultZ is not a tax itself.
It is a democratically decided , and fairly distributed Community funding percentage, 5% to all mined blocks.
It is completely transparent and it is not a steal or a forced tax with the launch of the coin or something.
We voted for it and everyone is free to participate by mining the coin , or to choose another coin to mine if he doesn’t want to.

However right now , btcz is still one of the very TOP profitable equihash coins.

If you feel that someone is stealing your money by that , sorry but I cannot help you further.
You can just switch to another coin.

You have to respect democracy though. Here , the most btcz Community members have taken a crystal clear decision in favour of VAULTZ+HYDRA.

Thank you


#32

I’m also against any form of taxes, socialism, and especially the end result of it - dictatorship. Having said that, people have to be rewarded for their effort. This projects badly requires development and it became obvious in the last two years that all the dev and support of adoption work has to be adequately rewarded. There is no such thing as free lunch or in this case a free BtcZ #2 CMC. BtcZ won’t evolve without people investing their time and work into this coin. This is why the miner’s money, as you rightfully name it, have to be put into not only finding another block but keeping this coin alive and evolving.


#33

I have repeatedly pointed out the fallacies of your assumptions and you blithely or ignorantly ignore them so I say again, You have no idea what you are doing here. VaultZ Is A Tax On Miners. No miner has a choice in the matter and you want to waste those taxes on some advertising you will come up with. You just don’t understand how business functions. I’m not gonna bother much with trying to point out yet again the foolishness of this proposal any longer as you are obviously blind to reality. But, maybe you can understand this. I’m not suggesting that what you are doing is necessarily because of conscious, nefarious motives. Sometimes people can convince themselves that what they’re doing is in the higher interest, the better good. You don’t realize that what you’re doing is really antithetical to the trustless system that we have. You are viewing yourself as the “Trusted Guardian” of the people and are more informed and sensitive than everybody else. How arrogant. As for your support? It is unchanged for several days now after garnering most all of the “Yes” votes in the first couple of days. Obviously, those reading now are NOT supporting what you are proposing and I dare say you are already chasing miners away as nethash has dropped by 30% in the last 10 days! Folks are seeing what you are proposing and are rightfully walking away. Why bother voting in this farce when it’s doomed to failure on the face. You have chosen the wrong vehicle to prosper this coin. I say again that your proposal is invalid because support dried up as soon as folks began understanding what you are creating. You would be better served by just giving away 5% to any and all first timers who would download a BTCZ branded wallet. A Trustless mechanism that would create thousands of new users and you could actually see results and monitor the growth with numbered wallets. Why waste BTCZ trying to advertise when there is already a flood of similar coins already on the market. “Profitable?” Only to a few traders who are causing prices to continue down. Any “development” of BTCZ is wasted if you don’t get BTCZ into the hands of folks who will actually use it. I will even give 1,000,000 BTCZ to the developer who creates a numbered wallet that could be preloaded with 1k BTCZ from VaultZ. Yes, a Million. Your proposal has no validity as support has already dried up with a week to go in this “vote”. Let it go. You are already at the point where you are telling folks to get lost if they don’t like what you are up to. I don’t wonder what it will be like if you ever get the keys to VaultZ as the handwriting is on the wall. (These so called “votes” are lame as it is. There is no QUORUM in this process! A proposal should be posted for comment for a month or more before voting starts to give folks a chance to examine what is being proposed instead of a few people ignorantly jumping on a bandwagon and skewing reality.)


#34

You said again the same that VaultZ is something against “Trustless” transactions which, as I have repeatedly explained , is completely unreal.

You now added a new thing :
I previously said that " if someone feels that he is being stolen by mining btcz because of the 5% donation, he is free to mine another coin"
Again you distorted the reality saying to me :
“” You are already at the point where you are telling folks to get lost if they don’t like what you are up to “”.

Obviously I never said such a thing.
The best answer to this , is my try to explain everything kindly and with very good manners.
In contrast with your manners, because you are writing with an offensive way , trying to distort everything and in your last post you have already accused me that I dream to steal money or something.
I won’t enter a procedure to answer this , the most in here know well which guys have worked for this project completely voluntarily and who have spent their energy only commenting and finding everything wrong.
So it would be meaningless to spend any time into that.

I will underline that it is not a random event that you have downvoted the Community presents for our Core Developers as well. Obviously you have a very “unique” way of thinking.
You like to enjoy things based on others’ hard work without ever thinking about those who were trying to keep those things alive.
…Nice logic…

Your proposal was to keep the VaultZ (which you never liked) just for feeding new wallets?
And which would be the extra feature in such a case , with the thousands airdropped coins , which use a premine to airdrop many coins to as many people possible?

What all those airdropped coins would value, without any new development and any marketing for this development ?

They would be dumped as always happens with all the airdropped coins!

With our conversation , you have in reality verified in front of everyone why HYDRA structure is very important for the protection of the VaultZ funds.

Because if we had no protection rules , this coin with such a fair launch and transparent organic development would turn to a farce , looking like the thousands other cryptos being airdropped out there every week.

Thank you for all this.
This was the epitome for this thread and the need of protection.

Ps. You have even tried to dispute the democratic outcome of this vote with 94% YES vs 6% NO and with the greatest period of vote ever used for a coin’s voting procedure.

This is very indicative about your personal view about democracy and how you respect the decisions of the vast majority of a Community. It is really an oxymoron the fact that you had expressed a dictatorship fear about Hydra.
When you don’t respect a 94% YES vote , and you try to underestimate it or you try to convince people that it should be void , you obviously don’t have much distance from dictatorship.

You started accusing me even that I hadn’t given enough time to this (!).
Are you serious ?
Three weeks , speaking about cryptocurrency time , just to vote for something , is an insanely very long time.

It is more than the maximum that our own white paper is predicting.

Look, I had been really nice , trying to answer everytime , with the best way possible.

However , I will stop replying , because obviously you don’t have a good intention when you write such things and time is really precious for me , because I can give this time for BTCZ , as always .

No hard feelings, but I cannot do this anymore, it is meaningless.


#35

If this “proposal” had been posted for comment for 30 days before voting were to take place then you might get a fair picture of how much support you truly have.How many people have voted FOR this travesty in the last two weeks? Certainly not as many as have voted against it or not even bothered to vote or comment. 68 votes is about as small a number of votes as any proposal has received and you are crowing about support? Do you know what the word “quorum” means? No one is even bothering to read it anymore and like I said a few days ago your support has dried up. To continue with this would be a shameful waste of other peoples money and you are become just exactly what you purport to defend against. This is embarrassing.